Comments on: Recreating the Alcega Farthingale for Modern Bodies http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/ (costume & pattern geekery) Tue, 07 Feb 2012 05:32:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: missa http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-1154 missa Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:53:56 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-1154 Hi, Sandra, Thanks for the proof reading, and good catch. (I swear, I really do know how to use my words *most* of the time.... And I actually do reread and proof the heavier posts. It's just that I know what I meant....) Sorry for the confusion. It's been corrected. I got on quite a roll of wrong for a couple sentences there. :( Hi, Sandra,

Thanks for the proof reading, and good catch. (I swear, I really do know how to use my words *most* of the time…. And I actually do reread and proof the heavier posts. It’s just that I know what I meant….) Sorry for the confusion. It’s been corrected. I got on quite a roll of wrong for a couple sentences there. :(

]]> By: Sandra http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-1153 Sandra Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:41:48 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-1153 Thank you for all the articles, they have been very informative. I have used your articles to aid my research several times through the years. One favor, though... please change "diameter" in the above discussion to circumference. I spent all night trying to understand why we had to use trigonometry to figure the radius when we supposedly had the diameter measurement... which didn't make sense either because 58" diameter would be one huge hoop for the top hoop. I finally pulled my copies of Janet Arnold's work trying to make sense of it, only to realize that I really DID know the math and it was the terminology that had me messed up. Thanks again for all the work you do. Thank you for all the articles, they have been very informative. I have used your articles to aid my research several times through the years. One favor, though… please change “diameter” in the above discussion to circumference. I spent all night trying to understand why we had to use trigonometry to figure the radius when we supposedly had the diameter measurement… which didn’t make sense either because 58″ diameter would be one huge hoop for the top hoop. I finally pulled my copies of Janet Arnold’s work trying to make sense of it, only to realize that I really DID know the math and it was the terminology that had me messed up. Thanks again for all the work you do.

]]> By: missa http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-682 missa Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:04:55 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-682 Not so smart -- I've just made that mistake before and had to sort out why it didn't work! (I hate making farthingales. And, by hate, I mean loathe. I've tried every shortcut I could get my hands on to make them less of a fuss.) I've used the clear poly-vinyl/jumbo aquarium tubing with the brass connectors, and it worked like a charm for me. There's two kinds - one clear and bendy while the other is opaque and less flexible. Poly-vinyls are thermoplastics, though, so it can be persuaded with the judicious use of an iron, a heat gun, or even a bathtub full of really hot water. Heck, you could stake it out in the back of your car during the summer if you're trying to be eco-friendly about it. Beware the fumes and the potential for melting, though. (Trivia: whalebone can also be heat-shaped and set. It's bizarre composition makes it, essentially, a thermoplastic sans the new-fangled plastic. Leather, too. Any animal-based substance with enough collagen can be heat set, because the collagen itself liquifies under heat and becomes plastic-like when it solidifies. There's chemistry involved, make no mistake, and chemistry is not so much something my brain gets on well with. Differences in the collagen and other compounds make for different outcomes. Whalebone, as I recall, can be reset. Once leather plasticizes, you're pretty much stuck with the shape you've got and it becomes nearly impervious. Explains the idea of boiled leather armor, huh?) Truthfully, though, I really prefer corded petticoats. They won't hold the same diameters as a rigidly bented farthingale, but you can fold them. I love a support skirt that can be folded and put away in a drawer! Not so smart — I’ve just made that mistake before and had to sort out why it didn’t work! (I hate making farthingales. And, by hate, I mean loathe. I’ve tried every shortcut I could get my hands on to make them less of a fuss.)
I’ve used the clear poly-vinyl/jumbo aquarium tubing with the brass connectors, and it worked like a charm for me. There’s two kinds – one clear and bendy while the other is opaque and less flexible. Poly-vinyls are thermoplastics, though, so it can be persuaded with the judicious use of an iron, a heat gun, or even a bathtub full of really hot water. Heck, you could stake it out in the back of your car during the summer if you’re trying to be eco-friendly about it. Beware the fumes and the potential for melting, though. (Trivia: whalebone can also be heat-shaped and set. It’s bizarre composition makes it, essentially, a thermoplastic sans the new-fangled plastic. Leather, too. Any animal-based substance with enough collagen can be heat set, because the collagen itself liquifies under heat and becomes plastic-like when it solidifies. There’s chemistry involved, make no mistake, and chemistry is not so much something my brain gets on well with. Differences in the collagen and other compounds make for different outcomes. Whalebone, as I recall, can be reset. Once leather plasticizes, you’re pretty much stuck with the shape you’ve got and it becomes nearly impervious. Explains the idea of boiled leather armor, huh?)
Truthfully, though, I really prefer corded petticoats. They won’t hold the same diameters as a rigidly bented farthingale, but you can fold them. I love a support skirt that can be folded and put away in a drawer!

]]> By: mosew http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-678 mosew Sun, 04 Apr 2010 03:15:53 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-678 Wow! You are one smart chick! I appreciate the input and it did help. I have tried the 9mm reed but wasn't able to get it to work. I found the technique Janet Arnold described (p. 7) and was searching for more of the 9mm reed, but was unable to find it anywhere :( Even the original distributed no longer carries it. The disappointing part was that my original shipment came in sections and some were not big enough for one full circle. BUT... with the 6mm you are absolutely right, I can double up on them. I already soaked them and shaped them. After giving up on the 9mm reed, I had previously attempted using the hard PVC pipe which comes in a rounded bundle and using brass connectors (per the Renaissance Tailor Web site), but found the PVC I purchased very unflexible. Since the PVC is hollow, I soaked the 6mm round reed then threaded them into the hollow PVC piping, and tied the excess around the frame so the reed would dry in that shape. I am hoping to post the construction as my next dress diary. I appreciate your input. I have to finish this soon so I can start on the gored kirtle I have planned. So much easier done with a proper farthingale to measure it over (especially for the non-math inclined novice sewer.) Sincerely, Monique Wow! You are one smart chick! I appreciate the input and it did help.

I have tried the 9mm reed but wasn’t able to get it to work. I found the technique Janet Arnold described (p. 7) and was searching for more of the 9mm reed, but was unable to find it anywhere :( Even the original distributed no longer carries it. The disappointing part was that my original shipment came in sections and some were not big enough for one full circle.

BUT… with the 6mm you are absolutely right, I can double up on them. I already soaked them and shaped them. After giving up on the 9mm reed, I had previously attempted using the hard PVC pipe which comes in a rounded bundle and using brass connectors (per the Renaissance Tailor Web site), but found the PVC I purchased very unflexible. Since the PVC is hollow, I soaked the 6mm round reed then threaded them into the hollow PVC piping, and tied the excess around the frame so the reed would dry in that shape. I am hoping to post the construction as my next dress diary.

I appreciate your input. I have to finish this soon so I can start on the gored kirtle I have planned. So much easier done with a proper farthingale to measure it over (especially for the non-math inclined novice sewer.)
Sincerely, Monique

]]> By: missa http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-676 missa Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:29:54 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-676 Erm.... Well, ok, technically, you *can* just sew up the back seam, and that will hold all of the bents in place and it will form a support skirt. The trouble is, it will be a teardrop shape, rather than a circle. You'll see an angle at the center back where the seam is. This is because rigid hoops work a lot like bubbles -- bubbles are round because the air inside exerts equal force on all parts of the soap-film-concoction that makes up the outside of the bubble. Rigid hoops stay round because the spring-like compression of the inside of the hoop material is applied equally to the outer edge of the hoop material all around. All the casing/body of the support skirt really add to the equation is vertical stability of the hoops. I mean, without the skirt, they all sort of fall to the floor. But the skirt itself doesn't give shape to the bents - that's a function of the material used. If you cut the bents and make any sort of blunt, abrupt join (ie, put then in channels then sew the seam shut or join them with a flat cut edge to a flat cut edge) you're going to disturb the balance of the compression that keeps them round. It's sort of like when you have two bubbles together - they each get a flat side. In this case, the area of the bent farthest away from the join will have the most spring and inside-to-outside compression ratio on the physical material. In normal english, it's going to make a good curve. As you get farther towards the cut end/blunt join, though, you've got a disruption in the inside compression - the absolute end effectively has none. As you get closer to the end, the lessening of the compression ratio shows physically as a lessening of the curvature of the bent. That's where that funky diagonal splice comes in - by creating that long join and binding it thoroughly, you're essentially creating a system where the hoop is a full circle with no distinct end, and the inside-outside compression ration on the boning material is consistent all the way around. Now, it it looks like a total pain in the patoutie, you can borrow a trick from the later 1600s and 1700s, and use a thicker bent (cane, bamboo, etc) that you literally soak, wet form, and dry to shape. Since the shape of the bent becomes permanent, you're no longer relying on compression and your joins can be as easy as you please. Shaping the material, on the other hand, presents it's own series of challenges. Since you're using a 6mm reed, which isn't terribly large, you could work with bundles of them that you bind together. So long as the ends aren't all in the same spot, and you've got them pretty tightly bound together, you should have a good shot at getting the kind of evenly distributed compression with no obvious areas of non-compression in the material that you're going for. (I say should because I've not actually tried it....) Running a single, contiguous piece of bent through the same channel several times round will also work, but it's a rather beastly process with something as draggy as reed - some tricks work best with plastic, and even then, they're not fun. With boning that relatively thin, you should also be able to lapp the bents by half a foot or so and bind them tightly (really, really tightly - much as I'm dead against it, this might be an excellent time to bust out the electrical tape), which should get you basically the same idea. Hope that helps..... Erm…. Well, ok, technically, you *can* just sew up the back seam, and that will hold all of the bents in place and it will form a support skirt.
The trouble is, it will be a teardrop shape, rather than a circle. You’ll see an angle at the center back where the seam is. This is because rigid hoops work a lot like bubbles — bubbles are round because the air inside exerts equal force on all parts of the soap-film-concoction that makes up the outside of the bubble. Rigid hoops stay round because the spring-like compression of the inside of the hoop material is applied equally to the outer edge of the hoop material all around. All the casing/body of the support skirt really add to the equation is vertical stability of the hoops. I mean, without the skirt, they all sort of fall to the floor. But the skirt itself doesn’t give shape to the bents – that’s a function of the material used.
If you cut the bents and make any sort of blunt, abrupt join (ie, put then in channels then sew the seam shut or join them with a flat cut edge to a flat cut edge) you’re going to disturb the balance of the compression that keeps them round. It’s sort of like when you have two bubbles together – they each get a flat side. In this case, the area of the bent farthest away from the join will have the most spring and inside-to-outside compression ratio on the physical material. In normal english, it’s going to make a good curve. As you get farther towards the cut end/blunt join, though, you’ve got a disruption in the inside compression – the absolute end effectively has none. As you get closer to the end, the lessening of the compression ratio shows physically as a lessening of the curvature of the bent.
That’s where that funky diagonal splice comes in – by creating that long join and binding it thoroughly, you’re essentially creating a system where the hoop is a full circle with no distinct end, and the inside-outside compression ration on the boning material is consistent all the way around.
Now, it it looks like a total pain in the patoutie, you can borrow a trick from the later 1600s and 1700s, and use a thicker bent (cane, bamboo, etc) that you literally soak, wet form, and dry to shape. Since the shape of the bent becomes permanent, you’re no longer relying on compression and your joins can be as easy as you please. Shaping the material, on the other hand, presents it’s own series of challenges.
Since you’re using a 6mm reed, which isn’t terribly large, you could work with bundles of them that you bind together. So long as the ends aren’t all in the same spot, and you’ve got them pretty tightly bound together, you should have a good shot at getting the kind of evenly distributed compression with no obvious areas of non-compression in the material that you’re going for. (I say should because I’ve not actually tried it….) Running a single, contiguous piece of bent through the same channel several times round will also work, but it’s a rather beastly process with something as draggy as reed – some tricks work best with plastic, and even then, they’re not fun.
With boning that relatively thin, you should also be able to lapp the bents by half a foot or so and bind them tightly (really, really tightly – much as I’m dead against it, this might be an excellent time to bust out the electrical tape), which should get you basically the same idea.

Hope that helps…..

]]> By: mosew http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-671 mosew Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:34:44 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-671 I've seen pictures on other sites of the hoops not actually meeting each other in the back. I am going to use a 6mm round reed for my Alcega farthingale and have got everything done except the back seam. I was curious, can you just sew the hoops to the edges or is it recommended you splice the ends to overlap and strap them together as Janet Arnold shows in Patterns of Fashion 1550-1650. I'm at work and don't have the book with me, so I can't reference the page, but I remember looking at something that showed how to cut a diagonal splice on both ends to match them up and then bind them together with yarn. I just remember looking at with my best friend and having this HUGE Obnoxious epiphany over the whole thing. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how I was going to connect the ends. I also have a small drill bit I could use to make a whole with to tie them together first, then bind them. Does that make sense? Monique I’ve seen pictures on other sites of the hoops not actually meeting each other in the back. I am going to use a 6mm round reed for my Alcega farthingale and have got everything done except the back seam. I was curious, can you just sew the hoops to the edges or is it recommended you splice the ends to overlap and strap them together as Janet Arnold shows in Patterns of Fashion 1550-1650.

I’m at work and don’t have the book with me, so I can’t reference the page, but I remember looking at something that showed how to cut a diagonal splice on both ends to match them up and then bind them together with yarn. I just remember looking at with my best friend and having this HUGE Obnoxious epiphany over the whole thing. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how I was going to connect the ends.

I also have a small drill bit I could use to make a whole with to tie them together first, then bind them. Does that make sense?

Monique

]]> By: Carl Booker http://www.sempstress.org/2010/recreating-the-alcega-farthingale-for-modern-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-613 Carl Booker Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:16:36 +0000 http://www.sempstress.org/?p=2629#comment-613 Hi, This is great! I'm a fellow costumer for both theatre and historical garments. On your old site you mention something about publishing a pamphlet on math for costumers. Is that still in the works? Just wondering. Beautiful work! Hi,
This is great! I’m a fellow costumer for both theatre and historical garments. On your old site you mention something about publishing a pamphlet on math for costumers. Is that still in the works? Just wondering. Beautiful work!

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